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Discussion Starter #1
Been driving the Versa lately to get some miles on him. Been enjoying the cheap gas under 2 bucks a gallon here and my honda odyssey that gets 17 mpg. >:D

Much like precious metals ethanol enhanced fuel goes down when the price of regular gas goes up and vice versa. Now it seems the tables have turned and I could save an extra ten cents a gallon if I got e15 vs the regular which is e10.

So, for 1.77 a gallon I got 7 gallons. I was averaging 43 mpg on the dash, 38 actual mpg. With the few tanks of e15 I saw a digital read out of 32 and actual of 28. I went from filling up once every 2 weeks to weekly. :surprise Dont think that is worth saving 10 cents a gallon.

Below is what the pump looks like where I shop. It says e15 is fine for 2001 and newer cars.



No CEL, no hard starting, etc. I see a benefit that when i have been driving for an hour I do not loose power in stop n go traffic or heat soak. With ac on and idling in traffic after an hour it feels like I loose 20 hp. Not so with e15. Guessing higher octane? I could try 89, 91 or 93 to see if I get the same effect. Mo octane gives mo throttle response. Too much and you loose throttle response like you have a dead pedal in the car.
 

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Don't be surprised if that E15 is closer to E30 in reality, here 'legal' E10 tests out at E20 all the time. They overtilt it since the subsidy makes the ethanol cheaper than gas, it also 'helps' with your gas mileage, found that out didn't we??? To sell more gasoline............
 

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Discussion Starter #3
FYI, tried it in the oddy and got a cel. Also less mpg, less power and hard starting.

I did have some success with it in the 2010 honda insight I had. I would do a mix of e85 7 gallons and 4 of regular gas. Back then I didnt have access to e15. When it was below 32 F out I got a cel. MPG was about the same if not slightly more, engine quieter and a bit more torque.
 

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It says e15 is fine for 2001 and newer cars.
Erm, no, the sticker right on the button says "FFVs ONLY". I see nothing in the pic about that fuel being OK for 2001 and newer vehicles.

I hate having to put 10% ethanol fuel into my car, no way I would voluntarily put 5% cornier gas in voluntarily to try to save 90 cents.

I don't want to be rude, but here's the deal: I understand that you *think* you can perceive differences in power and torque and how heat soaked your engine is or isn't and so on and so forth. Nothing against you, but I don't believe that you or me or any of us are really that sensitive to be able to discern those minute changes amongst the plethora of environmental variables that are in play all the time. I think people feel what they want to feel and believe what they want to believe. Actually, I know that to be a certain fact that science supports fully.

If I were your neighbor we could play a game. Every time you get low on gas I would take your car to the pump without you and I would randomly select a grade of fuel to fill it up with, I'd write it down, then bring your car back and let you drive it until all the gas is gone and repeat the cycle. And for each tank I would ask you "Alright buddy, what grade of fuel do you *think* you ran with all week?" and even though you have great odds (1 in 5) of getting it right out of pure luck if we did that for a long enough period of time to even out the lucky guesses I bet we would find out you could basically never repeatably be certain what I had dumped into your tank.

This sounds like fun actually, hey anyone near Cobb's area want to pump his gas for him and run our experiment? :grin
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Really? You mean to tell me when you drive an economy car you can not feel any difference in performance with the ac off or on? How about with and without passengers? I know a 90 amp load on an alt will bring a 3 hp electric motor to a stop from the test bench at the pep boys I worked at. I also know the ac compressor takes about the same power to spin it over.

Ok, your butt dyno must need some adjustments. :nerd:

I can not post photos of the actual gas pump since I do not own a camera dull enough to take small enough photos to upload.

Here is another photo online of the additional sticker on the e15 pump.



I run 91 octane in my oddy and 93 in my former honda insight. 93 in the oddy was too much. I can see the timing, etc by way of my scangauge 2. We get way more data available with the Nissan. :smile
 

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Sure I'll grant you I can feel it when the AC compressor kicks on and when there are a lot of people in the car, but there are lots of other variables in play all the time too. Temperature and humidity, wind speed and direction, ambient barometric pressure, variance in the fuel (pump may say 87 but who knows what you really get from week to week), little tuning adjustments the ECU is making all the time, electrical load (drag) on the alternator, engine temp, .. location and corresponding gravitational pull of the moon ...

I'm just saying people make claims about what they think they "feel" all the time and they say "well the only thing that I changed was the fuel" well sure thats all you changed but if its 10 degrees colder on average this week and barometric pressure is higher than normal and a tailwind is pushing you the direction you are driving and the fuel supplier actually brought in stuff that test at 88.4 octane with less contaminants than usual this week and the computer has recently set some long-term slight corrections to fuel mapping tables to make up for something it gleaned off the sensors then there is more at play than what people think, too many variables to support solid conclusions.

I like what the computer can tell me. It has far more consistent and reliable reading through its sensors than I do, and easy to compare from my versa to yours and anyone else's.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Well, thats why I run several tanks. A quick and dirty test would be to wait til the low gas warning appears, but even if you buy a few gallons you arent getting the full ethanol content or octane rating as it mixes with the crap already in your tank.

Having a hybrid really teaches you that as it mixes electric with fuel to go and as you use up battery power and the stuff gets warm to hot it starts to reduce electrical assist so you end up on more motor vs both.

Heavy use of AC sucks down the electric assist of a hybrid and too much electrical load causes the car to disable AC. :frown Thats how with watching timing on an sg2 I know and see how different octane fuel treated my car.

Secondly, the owners manual said the car will run on 87, but our friends in europe owners manual said it required the euro std which is like 89 octane in the US.

Long story short you cant hurt a car using higher octane than required or a top tier fuel. Those both usually contain more additives, supplements, etc and betters the fuel system.
 

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Well I don't know what your options at the pump are and clearly they are different, there is no E15 option anywhere around me here, but there are also no non-top tier fuels here. All of our choices are top tier. 87, 89, or 91 octane options and all labeled top tier. Studies have pretty thoroughly debunked the myths that the more expensive options at the pumps contain significantly more additives or detergents, the minimum standards for 87 already have plenty of additives and such because it is required.

Don't forget I had an IMA honda too and yeah I agree they sort of entice you to get more in tune with the car to get the most out of it but thats besides the point.

So this is the only thing I'm willing to backpedal on at this point: We as people can feel some changes in performance and behavior from drive to drive.

But, I'm still saying there are too many factors and variables at play to say that we can both feel the change AND be certain what caused it. We are driving through continuously changing seasons and weather and traffic, up here there are seasonal blends of fuel for the winter, its never a fair comparison. About the only figure we have to point at is the MPG calculation made by the car computer (anything else is hearsay) and unless you can show me a 1.6 Versa that consistently gets more than 45 MPG then anything else is pure subjectivity and driving technique on a car that is operating right within the range the manufacture says it should be.

Look at it this way, if I said "hey guys I put in race fuel and now I can get to 60 MPH in 6.x seconds!"
you'd be skeptical and say "What? Six seconds? Thats pretty much impossible, especially not from new fuel alone! Prove it lets see a timer!"
if I responded with "well I didn't have a timer, but I counted the seconds in my head"
you would say "counted in your head, eh?"
and I reply "Yep. I'm very good at counting seconds. Staring at the clock at work every day makes you into an expert and then you can totally track time accurately in your head"
you would say "ooooookaaaaayyyy andrew... I think I'm going to take your 0-60 with just a grain of salt..."

Its pretty much the same when you say you can "feel" stuff but really theres no proof, no dyno readings, theres a dozen factors affecting car performance on any given day but no worries, you've got a precision spreadsheet in your mind that tracks ALL the variables from day to day to day across tanks and tanks of gas and levels it all out and you can see a performance spike on your mind graph with specific fuel... I gotta take it with a grain of salt man.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yeah, it would be nice if dynos and data tracking was easier to accomplish.

At the least I thought it would be a good discussion. A few guys at work with a cvt say using mid grade fuel makes their car rev less or seem like it has more balls, but no real data.

I know some cars do perform differently with flex fuel. I just dont have the time or money to own or do the above. I am still however going with mid grade vs regular moose piss gasoline for my versa.
 

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Cobb said:
I am still however going with mid grade vs regular moose piss gasoline for my versa.
I don't blame you there, I used to only use mid-grade in hopes it was at least a tad less contaminated than the cheapest option. That was when I got my first car that had no fuel filter and only a screen in the gas tank, which I didn't like. The versa is the same way but I gave up on spending the money on mid-tier fuel on this car. Figure I won't have it long enough for that to be an issue, although I am considering staying in the nissan family after all. Waiting to see what the frontier will look like when they finally update it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I use to buy gas at wawa and found my coworkers got a check engine light when they used it. I was ok as I would buy a gallon a day to get a receipt which contained a coupon and go inside and buy my lunch of a day. Of course back then my commute was 83 miles and almost 80 miles in i295 going 65-70 mph with cruse control.

It wasnt til I moved, changed driving style and changed jobs did I start to suspect a dr jeckle and mr hide in my cars performance and fuel I purchased. THis is where I discovered fuel purchased in the county may contain up to 10% ethanol and fuel in the city contains 10% ethanol. I could see a bump in mpg with the lower ethanol fuel vs city.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Been using e15 due to it gives the engine more balls despite loosing 13 mpg and its between 10-20 cents cheaper a gallon.

Well, now its a high of 80 and low of 50 F in temperature I find the car needs a few extra seconds of cranking to start. No CEL or DTC. It starts ok if warm. Since my drive is never identical I am using tank averages and when I fill up I go between e15 and regular gas which states contains 10% ethanol. So Im likely never at an e10 or e15 as there is a few gallons in the tank and my fill up are around 7.5 gallons.

So, car has more balls, more torque above 3500 rpms and top 30.x mpg on e15 fill ups. I release the clutch then hit the gas.

On regular gas it has less balls and I find I need to hit the gas, then release the clutch I see 43 mpg on average.

On regular gas with ac on you need to give it like quarter to half throttle before releasing the clutch from a dead stop and at least going to 2nd. :surprise

No e85 experiments. Funny as my other car I use to do 4 gallons e85 and 6 regular gas. It was quieter, more pep and gained 10 mpg. No starting issues, but when temps got to freezing I get a fuel trim level out of range DTC.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
So, regardless of temp outside I like the performance with some E in the fuel more so than 10%. With a tank of e15 or a fil up with e15 its hard to start on cool mornings and looses 10 mpg.

So, been mixing 4 gallons of e84 to 6 gallons of e10 like I use to my honda when e15 was not available. Ironically enough I am only loosing 3 mpg going this route. :surprise Furthermore the e15 pumps have a red sticker on them that they failed a weights and measurements inspection and are unusable.

Im betting the e15 pumps were mixing more E than G. I doubt a 5% increase in E can cause such a drop in mpg and make the car hard to start. Hell, the honda actually gained 3 mpg and it wasnt til it was near freezing out did I get a check engine light about a trim error.

Can wait til they fix the pump and give it a go again.

With the honda I was buying gas else where so I can not compare by using that same pump for the N.
 

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I drove a flex-fuel Dodge Grand Caravan for several years and can tell you that you're ALWAYS going to get lower mileage with higher levels of ethanol. Running on E85, we averaged 18-20 MPG. On regular, 10%-ethanol-infused gas, 21-22, and about 23 with regular, ethanol-free gas (it's there, you just have to hunt for it).

The issue for me was, the van ran and drove so much better on E85, I took the mileage hit. In the winter, it occasionally cranked a little longer, but if we get a rare "real" cold winter here in KY, so does everything else!

I am finding, through several months of experimenting, that Top Tier gas (I'm running Valero and Marathon) gives me an extra 1-3 MPG versus "cheap" gas (regional Chuckles brand and Kroger). If I keep the better stuff in there, I'm getting 35+ easily in mixed driving. If I go cheap, it's 33-34. Makes me wonder if the cheap guys are putting in more ethanol ...

Sorry to write a novel but I found this topic very interesting!
 

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The owner's manual in my Nissan warns against using gas with more than 10% ethanol

● Do not use E-15 or E-85 fuel in your
vehicle. Your vehicle is not designed to
run on E-15 or E-85 fuel. Using E-15 or
E-85 fuel in a vehicle not specifically
designed for E-15 or E-85 fuel can adversely
affect the emission control devices
and systems of the vehicle. Damage
caused by such fuel is not covered
by the NISSAN New Vehicle Limited
Warranty.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Well, since they reopened the pumps for e 15 and e 85 Ive been using e15 for quite a few fill ups vs part or half tanks.

My actual mpg is 35, the display reads 40.x. Its 7 cents cheaper a gallon and I find reduction in bucking or hickups if you are a bit rough engaging the clutch. When or if the price of gas goes back up you will see more of a savings for increased e in the gas.

I like the umph increase. It really helps with running the AC for cooling or defrosting. :surprise
 
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