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Discussion Starter #21
I would be grilling the son about how car came to be that way, pretty uncommon to show up like that suddenly since you have already serviced the parts likely to have fixed a sudden issue.

If you have tried to start it enough the not running will positively wet the plugs out to then not start easy and die easy. Pull them to see if they are wet. Your perceived rich issue, ALL cars start rich but go to running fast enough to burn the plugs off clean, if they cannot run due to other reason the plugs quickly wet out. Then car only runs like crap for a second to die even if nothing is wrong with it. May need more plugs.
Got it... but car starts every time still run for only a sec.

Next thing ill try is, unplug or remove fuse from fuel pump and try to start on ether (starting fluid). If the engin will run on starting fluid, than gas is contaminated.
If not, there must be electrical issue... because engine stall so fast, i dont think, there is vacuum problem.
 

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Some of your conclusion is whacky. Leave the fuse in. The starting fuel running engine for longer even when pump SHOULD be running is further proof of bad fuel supply as in the amount and pressure.

'If the engin will run on starting fluid, than gas is contaminated.'

That has several things wrong with it. Why you grill the son, diesel didn't get there by accident, he would know, the gas cap is locked to not be messed with. You can smell diesel in normal gasoline. Fouled plugs ARE an electrical issue but not one you chase wiring with, and they can make that start to quickly stop symptom all day long.

Having the fuel pump fuse in place also lets the ether run the engine possibly long enough to somewhat unfoul the plugs and then regular fuel supply kicks in to take over and engine stumbles around for a bit then begins to clear out and run better if all that is wrong is heavily fouled out plugs. Fuse out it doesn't happen. The ether is used to not only start the engine but keep it running long enough the fouling burns out during it.

You should be aware that modern MPFI cars now are harder to light off with starting fluid and the explosion risk is MUCH higher as a result too. The older cars had much smaller intake manifold volumes that required much less ether to light off the engine, now they are much bigger due to the manifolds only carrying air and not fuel. The normal 2 second MAX ether shot that would start an older car is usually not enough and you must use a much bigger shot to cover the increased air volume there and then the explosion risk goes way up. Even more so if you do NOT pull the plugs to look at them to see if they are WET. When wet they short down the side of the insulators and why the engine pops off to run for a second then dies, the cylinders are too rich. The shorting spark is not hot enough and then produces a weak partial only ignition of the mixture that burns slow as a result to let the engine backfire into the intake and normal for fouled plugs to do that all day long. Except for the fact that the intake is now full of ether. What happens next? The intake explodes and possibly into many pieces, seen it more than once. Can easily kill somebody.

Why slow methodical absolutely correct thinking in proper order needs to take place whenever using ether. BTDT. Those problems did not exist on the older cars unless an idiot was working on them. No insult intended there at all of course, just that safety is always more important than whether the car gets running.

Make ABSOLUTELY sure the plugs (ALL) are BONE DRY before using ether there. If they already are dry you likely still have a fuel supply issue if you have already been trying to start it for a while.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Update:


Engine now starts and run, but idle goes up and down... about 1100 to 2000 rpm...

Any idea?
 

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Wetted plugs can do that.

You may have fixed nothing, you don't say and making it not really an update.

A car that won't crank often does days later, that does not mean they have fixed themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
Actually, i went away for few weeks and since i came back, car starts every time but with rpms going up and down...

What i did so far;

Checked lines for cracks and possible vacuum leak
Reconnect ECU harness, TPS, MAP and MAF sensor, O2 pre cat sensor, temperature sensor, crank shaft sensor and any possible connectors i could see...
I cleaned throttle body
Checked PCV valve
Checked ground from battery to the engine


My next step;

Just ordered OEM spark plugs, intake and throttle body gaskets.



BTW. All this happened about month or two after tune up (from some local shop)

Edited; i was reading somewhere, that over tightened intake manifold and throttle body can cause some leaks and floating RPMs. 20ft lbs for manifold and 89ft lbs for TB...
 

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Now that you clarified a bit more..............the car wouldn't start because the plugs were wet, with time the wet evaporated but not ever 100% so the car starts later but has a faulty idle as the plugs are still fouled, they convert from a wetfoul to dryfoul as the fuel then carbons up the side of plug with a now dry deposit that then shorts out the same way as before but not bad enough so that it now starts but does not idle right.

New plugs will cure the idle if that is all that is now wrong. If still doing it then vacuum leak likely.

Old plugs coming out dark verify what I said about plugs. You can clean old to work like new again but needs to glassbead to do it, no washing on earth will clean that deposit off the porcelain.

If you have access to realworld OBD live data the first O2 will be hanging low at idle when the engine is doing the lumpy idle, the sensor not going over .5 volt is a lean indicator of a vacuum leak.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Ok,
Today i replaced spark plugs and intake gasket kit. Also cleaned TB.

Engine start right up and was running just perfect.

I did several restarts and all was working as expected.

Then, i did TB relearn and right after all done, engine start acting weird again....

RPM running up and down....

Im lost...

Here is the video how to relearn: https://youtu.be/CR-AjHCslhs
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Got it run!


90% of TB relearning videos are useless !

This is how i did it:

Turn ignition ON for 2 sec, turn OFF for 10. Than do it again, 2 sec ON, than OFF 10 sec.


After that;


1, let vehicle turned OFF for at least 10 sec

2, turn ignition ON and count 3 sec

3, right after depress accelerator pedal 5 times (in 5 sec)

4, count 7 sec and than press accelerator and hold it.

5, while holding, watch Check engine light. Should flash several times and than start flashing quicker. Still hold the pedal until solid Check engine light and start the engine in 3 sec.

Car start right up. RPM was going up and down for about 10-15 sec, than got back to normal idle (about 750rpm).


Turn the engine and have a glass of vine 😂
 

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Disconnect the battery and avoid all that monkey-motion. Does the same thing.

You lost me when you said you had car running perfectly to then try to relearn idle and why? I have never needed to relearn idle yet on mine. You had a car idling fine then you tell the ECM to relearn, it then substitutes the last running circumstance assuming it was good and yours was a bad idle so bad idle got substituted instead.

One has to be smarter than the machine.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Naaah,

TB has step motor which has to set its limits automatically by relearning process. You can do it over and over and it will do the same adjusting. Car ECU is not computer with artificial intelligence :)

I did relearn, because when i was cleaning TB, i moved fly several times ams relearning is just recommenced in this case.
Also, RPMs was running above 1000 RPM which is high idle value.

Anyway.....


I tried to start car next morning and car wont start... just for maybe half sec and dies again....

So... im back to square one....

I have one more thing i can try, buy used TB from ebay for $40 and try again...

Im lost at this moment....
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Here im agaim...

Versa was doing the same thing over and over.
Every time i crank, engine starts for half a second or full second and stalls.
What i replaced so far;
Fuel pump. Crankshaft pos sensor, camshaft pos sensor (twice)
Spark plugs
Ignition coils
I replaced throttle body as well
Intake manifold ans throttle body seals

Now. Latest update.
I changed coil packs today and engin was acting the same. I cranked about 20 times and engine started running no problem. RPM went little over 1000 and when wormed up, dropped for about 700.
I test drive it with no problem. Restarted it several times and started no problem.

So, i let it sit for about hour or so and cranked again. Engine didn’t start on first crank, so I cranked again and started... i dove it arround the block and noticed check engine light was on. Using Blue driver OBD2 scanner scanned codes and p0340 pops up.
I cleared all codes and let the var sit for 3 more hours.
Than i tried to start again but no luck.
I had to crank it for about the 30 times until engine start running again.
Check engine light came back on.
Sams code. P0340...

VIN: P0340 Repair Report 3N1BC13E87L360517 DECODED: 2007 Nissan Versa (S; SL) Model Year: Make: Model: Trim Level: 2007 Nissan Versa S; SL

P0340 CODE DEFINITION: • Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Malfunction
4 POSSIBLE CAUSES: • CMP sensor connector is damaged (check pins for damage, and for moisture) • CMP sensor has failed • CMP sensor signal circuit is open, shorted to ground or shorted to voltage • PCM has failed
TOP REPORTED FIX: • Replaced Timing Chain
2 FREQUENTLY REPORTED FIXES: • Replaced Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor • Replaced Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor
4 OTHER REPORTED FIXES: • Shimmed Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor • Repaired Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Wiring


Now, what surprised me is TOP REPORTED FIX - replaced timing chain ?!

Did anyone run in to this ?

Thx
 

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If timing has jumped could do it. That of course will not run right, so not your issue.

If the sensor is on the cam that has variable timing it can be the mechanism for that sticking too.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Problem SOLVED !!!


I was doing more research about camshaft position sensor and found interesting solution to this problem.

I shimmed sensor about 0.7mm (0.03’’) and since then, car starts and runs like new !

I think, the problem is aftermarket sensors are not that precise manufactured.
 

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Are you saying to shim the sensor FURTHER away/out/up from the lug it reads? Because that weakens the reading of it and in no way makes things better. Worse if anything.

Pointing possibly to the tightness of the connector, that time you got luckier and made better contact plugging it back up.

The sensor is a positive bottoming out type and the step there is calculated to give the best possible read of the lug. Closer = better but it cannot touch for obvious reasons.
 
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